Interview With Richard M. Smith, Morton M. Kondracke,
Margaret Garrard Warner, and Elaine Shannon of Newsweek on the Campaign Against
Drug Abuse
Q.
Well, last time Mort and I were here we were talking about SALT and arms
control, and now we're here to talk about another war, another -- --
The President. Yes,
and a very vital war.
Q.
We've followed, of course, the First Lady's interest in the drug problems for
years, but now it seems as if you and the White House staff and the fellows on
Capitol Hill are all beginning to move at the same time on this. What prompts
the activity now?
The President. Well, let me say, it
isn't just a recent thing. Nancy would have never sat back doing what she was
doing and let us get away with doing nothing. But we felt from the very first,
in 1981 when we came here, that the obvious, legitimate job of government was
the interception of -- or the interdiction of the drugs and preventing them
from getting to the users. Nancy, of course, had approached it from what I've
always believed is the real way if we're ever to get control of this; and that
is, to take the users away from the drugs instead of the other way around. And
she had been interested in this before we even got here. Finding out how many
parents weren't aware of there being a threat to their children -- whether they
were unwilling or just didn't know that this was happening in the schools and
so forth -- and she had started along that tack.
When
we first came here,
And
I think it's just the increasing problem that made us finally aware that what
is really needed is a nationwide campaign, not just government. But as we've
done so many times in the past, when you take a problem to the American people,
they now are concerned about it. The polls show that this is on most people's
mind -- the number-one problem in the country. And we're going to very shortly
be going public with soliciting the help of everyone on both sides. Because
it's not only necessary to step up our efforts to make it difficult to get the
drugs, but the main thrust has got to be to get the people, themselves, to turn
off on it.
Q.
We understand that there are going to be some initiatives involving Federal
employees and the use of drug tests for certain Federal employees. Is that
true?
The President. Well, there has to be,
when you stop to think of some people in some very -- well, the type of work
that they are doing. For example, you can't have people in law enforcement who
carry weapons, you can't have air traffic controllers and so forth -- have this
be a possibility. So, we've always been in agreement on keeping tabs on people
in those positions -- using testing. But we're still discussing the ways of
getting at this, not only in government but out in business and industry, where
it's estimated that the cost now to business and industry in
Q.
Would you favor drug testing for all Federal employees?
The President. I have great concerns
-- other than the type of people I was just mentioning, where I feel that it's
justified to be mandatory -- I think you've got a right to say that if I'm
entrusting my life to someone's care, I've got a right to know. But I would
rather see a voluntary program in which we can say to them, and say to people
who might be detected in such a program, or that if
they want to come forward and simply say this, that they won't lose jobs and
there won't be punishment. What there would be is an offer of help, to tell
people, ``No, if this is your problem, let us help you cure yourself of
addiction.''
Q.
Will you be -- --
The President. And -- --
Q.
Oh, I'm sorry. Will you be asking your department heads, though, to select
those jobs that they consider safety- or national security-related enough to
ask the people who hold those jobs to take these tests?
The President. Well, and in some
instances, I think it's all right to have it mandatory. That, as I say, people
who have other people's safety in their own hands -- I don't think that they
should complain about mandatory testing. But in the other, I
believe through -- down all the way -- and this is why a nationwide movement,
and one at the civilian sector -- to again have that same approach, in business
and industry. Let the executives volunteer themselves and say to others,
you know, do this, but with that assurance: We're not out to find you and
destroy you -- punish you in any way. We're out to
help you.
Q.
You had a little problem with George Shultz on the question of polygraph
testing. Do you think you might have that problem if you ask the Secretary of
State and State employees to take drug tests?
The President. No. If it would help, I
would be very much in favor of volunteering to start at the top, and not only
in government but in business, industry, the professions, everyplace else as an
example to others and be willing to do it.
Q.
Do you think that people with security clearances fall in that category?
The President. I would think, yes,
that that's legitimate.
Q.
Are you, in fact, going to ask your Cabinet officers to submit to testing on a
voluntary basis, themselves, and ask their
subordinates to do that?
The President. Well, Mort, there's
going to be some of your questions that I can't answer, because we're still in
the process. And I'm afraid that any announcements that we have will come after
this interview has been printed. But, yes, this is under discussion right now,
and I have already suggested such a thing to our top people.
Q.
Are you at all concerned about the privacy issue that is raised by mandatory
drug testing?
The President. Well, as I say, if the
mandatory is only in those areas where you can show the kind of responsibility
for national security, for people's lives, and so forth -- there I don't think
there can be a quarrel. On the other, I feel that it might be far more
productive to go the voluntary way.
Q.
Could I ask a question about the money connected with all this? If these people
turn up or even volunteer themselves and come forward, is there going to be the
money available for rehabilitation required. And also, is
there going to be added money for prevention, you know, education programs and
that sort of thing? How much more money is going to be spent?
The President. Well, this, of course,
is, again, one of the things that we have under discussion, and we know the
problem that we have to meet. I think one simple thing could add to the money
right now without an additional penny being spent. Having come from being a
Governor, one thing that was very much in my mind was getting a lot of Federal
grants to local and State governments converted into what we could call block
grants. For example, I have to tell you that as Governor of a State I found out
that Federal grants that came to us, totally wrapped in redtape
and restrictions and absolute directions as to how the money must be used,
every dollar of it, that the amount that went into administrative overhead was
far in excess of the amount that was then left to do the job.
So,
we sought to combine some of these into block grants and then let the people at
the local and the State level use this money where it met their problems the
most. For example, to say nationwide to a State: You must use x amount of money
in an alcoholic treatment. You must use x amount of money in drug treatment --
well, you can't believe that every place in the country had the same ratio of problems.
One of them might have a very great problem over here, another one over here.
So, we introduced this idea of block grant and to put all this money together.
But when the Congress approved it, what they did would add amendments that put
all the redtape and all the directions, specific
directions, back in. So, out there too much of that money is being spent on
administrative overhead. Now, what we would like to do as a part of this
program is ask that those restrictions be taken off and see how far the money
goes if it isn't all being spent on bureaucracy.
Q.
But does that mean that there won't be any additional money? And the question
you get from a lot of people involved in this is: If this is a real war, are we
going to devote the resources to it, the money, to really fight it, or are we
going to try to nickel and dime it or handle it by rhetoric?
The President. No, not going to be
rhetoric. And it's possible that there will be more need for money. On the
other hand, you can't underestimate what can be done at the private sector
without government intervention. When you look at the amount of money, right
now, that is being spent and being raised privately by people in the private
sector and is being administered by the private sector because of the help of
volunteers -- no one can estimate the amount of money it would take to replace
these volunteers with bureaucrats. And I don't mean to denigrate the people
that work in government, but they would be legitimately doing the job. But they
can't afford to be volunteers. So, we will have to look at this other, and then
it has to be a matter of priorities.
Now,
in the budget that I submitted and which the Congress -- if it wasn't dead on
arrival, they stabbed it right after arrival -- had to do with spending cuts we
had proposed in the domestic sector. And those cuts weren't just off the top of
our heads. Those came from hours and hours of meetings, day after day in the
Cabinet Room, with the people who would be in charge of these programs. And they
were the ones who were willing to say that they could do this program for less
money than it had been done before and so forth. Then you sent it up to
Congress, and they who have nothing to do with the administration of the
program say: Oh, no, sir, you've got to spend twice as much
money. There, as I say, we've listed at least 40 programs that we don't
think are needed at all, that are not serving any useful purpose. So, once
again, if this is the primary problem and we're talking about human beings and lives
and a whole generation of young people, then I think we're entitled to go back
and say: Isn't this more important than some of these other things that you
insist we keep on doing?
Q.
Mr. President, if you talk to the people who run treatment programs,
rehabilitation programs, they say they're swamped -- they are turning people
away. And yet they also say that it's been under your administration that
there's been less money for rehabilitation and treatment.
The President. The less money was
because when we switched to block grants we figured that that had eliminated --
and we know this from the return on block grants in other areas -- that added
so much money to the actual work that could be done rather than to
administrative overhead that we didn't feel we needed quite as much. But then,
when the Congress put back in all the redtape and the
restrictions that we had tried to eliminate, why, of course, that left less
money for the actual program. But, once again, this is part of what we believe
when we start appealing for this national drive. And I've talked to leaders in
the private sector of many areas on this very subject; they're raring to go.
And some of them are already involved in this, with programs. So, maybe we'll
find that that can be a good part of the solution.
Q.
On the law enforcement side of things, what can be done, or should be done, to
try to stop drug use? Should drug users go to jail?
The President. No, I think we should
offer help for them. I can tell you, however, what the military did, and this
is very encouraging. Early on, when we first came here, then the military
started taking up this problem within the ranks and found, yes, there was
widespread use of drugs, just as there is on some of our prestigious
educational campuses and so forth. And the military put into effect a program,
and it wasn't one of, hey, you're out if you were found using them. It was a
case of offering treatment and help. And then there've been very few that have
been ousted. They had a system of the junior recruits. New people were given a
couple of chances if they, you know, if they came forth and said: Okay, yes, I
will take the treatment. Then if they backslid and didn't -- we gave them two
chances. Then the next grade up and junior officers and so forth -- they only
got one more chance. And that's what it is at the very top. And so, there've
been a very small number who have been removed from the service. But the usage
of drugs has been cut by 67 percent in the uniformed services.
Q.
It sounds odd to say, but should drug dealers go to jail?
The President. Yes, yes. I'm -- --
Q.
Should they be executed, as
The President. Here again, while we
haven't come to final decisions on this, I would tell you that my own personal
view is that if you're talking about the death penalty, I know they deserve it.
But, no, I would think that we might be taking on, then, something that would
divide our ranks, because there are so many people who don't believe in the
death penalty for anything. So, no, I think the stricter penalties and all of
this and law enforcement -- but my own view is that the death penalty would be
counterproductive.
Q.
Doesn't that imply that if the commitment is to put drug dealers in jail,
doesn't that imply a substantial new commitment to build new prisons and to
step up the enforcement procedures?
The President. Well, I think we've got
a problem of whether we have enough. We have one locally in
Q.
And spend whatever is necessary to expand prison capacity?
The President. Yes, we're talking
about human lives at stake. I actually believe that the prime effort, however,
if we're to succeed, has to be in turning off. The thing that
Q.
What's your view, in a mood when you've described
The President. Well, how do you relate
that? For one thing, we've had some of our modern day things of interest to
young people in the music world that has stimulated this, that it made it sound
as if it's right there and the thing to do, and rock and roll concerts and so
forth, musicians that the young people like and that make no secret of the fact
that they are users, and many times, when they're performing, the lyrics of
songs, show business, itself. I must say this, that the theater, well, motion
picture industry, was started down a road that they'd been on before once with
alcohol abuse. I can remember when it was rather commonplace in films,
particularly if you wanted some laughs in a comedy, to portray drunk scenes and so forth as being very humorous. And the
motion picture industry decided sometime ago that that wasn't right for them to
do, that that was encouraging and painting the wrong picture; and they stopped.
And yet, recently, there have been some pictures in which there was a
gratuitous scene in there just for a laugh of drug use that made it look kind
of attractive and funny, not dangerous and sad.
Already,
Q.
Well, let me ask you about enforcement. A lot of people say that your war on
drugs is all rhetoric. You're spending half of 1 percent of the defense budget
on drug enforcement and education -- talking about $2 billion compared to $300
billion-plus for the defense budget. You have about 300 more DEA agents than
you had in 1974. You, personally, have increased DEA agents
numbers to about 500. But there's still -- --
The President. Yes.
Q. -- -- a few hundred. How can you fight a war
with a few thousand people and with this very limited -- --
The President. Well, that is in that
one agency. But I don't think that counts all the other people that we've
organized into these task forces and the dozen such forces under the Attorney
General that have other personnel from other agencies plus the local and the
military and all the others that have been banded together in this. In other
words, the job is just not in the hands of the DEA agents alone. So, I think
that's been exaggerated in the way it's been portrayed. As I say, when you've
got a team that comes from local law enforcement, and you have access to them
-- to State legal or law enforcement people, to military, to Federal, and that
kind of cooperation, such as is in these groups under the Attorney General,
why, we have added to the personnel that are fighting this.
Q.
But some of the congressional Republicans are talking about raising taxes to
fund the war on drugs. Would you support that?
The President. Well, I don't believe it's necessary. But
let's go at this program that we're going to announce and this effort that
we're going to try to get going throughout the Nation and see. Incidentally, on
the question a moment ago on music, when I was talking about that, here again,
I think you should know that there is a movement now among those musicians and
these musical groups for drug-free rock concerts and so forth, that they're
working within the trade, themselves, to help clean up.
Q.
Mr. President, some members of your own party, in addition to talking about the
need to spend more, are saying that your policies toward drug-producing
countries contain only carrots and not enough sticks.
The President. Well, there's a limit
to what you can do with regard to another sovereign nation. You can't stand in
there and whip their law enforcement authorities now. But I don't think that's
a fair charge. We have been working -- and here again, the start came from
And
I saw the effect of it subsequently at one of the economic summit conferences
where, suddenly, the heads of state sitting around the table -- their wives had
been a part of this group that Nancy had put together -- and suddenly they
said: Hey, wait a minute, what are we doing? Let's us
do something. And we are working, and working hand in hand, with foreign
ministers. As a matter of fact, Secretary Shultz just said the other day that
he, as a result of this First Ladies' thing and what
Q.
What kind of leverage would that include? Economic sanctions?
The President. I don't know as yet.
Again, as I say, there's so much of what we're, right now, talking that -- and
so many facets to it -- that I can't tell you what we would -- --
Q.
Would covert action in any sort of way be a possibility to go to the source of
drug production?
The President. I can't answer that
one. I really can't.
Q.
No ``contras against drugs'' in
The President. [Laughing] I can't
answer that.
Q.
Well, let me ask a specific question on
The President. Yes.
Q.
Are you going to bring this up? And how hard a line are you willing to take
with
The President. Well, let me tell you
that from the President's level there we have been having cooperation. We are
working with them. They know that, and it isn't all just from them, it's
through them -- a large portion of this. And that's a 2,000-mile border. And,
obviously, they do not have all the forces that are certainly equal to ours or
not. But, yes, there are problems there and within the country, as there are in
some of the other countries that we deal with in which the drug czars have been
able to infiltrate and to gain allies in a great many places because they have
the means to buy. And so --
--
Q.
Would you consider closing the border as President Nixon did in the late
sixties?
The President. Well, I don't know
whether that would do it or not, because the people that are crossing that
border and bringing in much of this now are not going through the normal border
stops. They're crossing the border surreptitiously and -- --
Q.
No, but it is an economic sanction. It hurts trade, and it got the Government
of Mexico's attention in 1969. Were you willing to go that far, if necessary,
to force them to deal with the problem?
The President. Well, yes, but this if
you feel that they are not dealing up to their capacity, that they're shutting
their eyes to it and letting it happen. But you have to recognize that, as I
say, some of these countries are limited in their means and their ability --
their personnel in handling a problem as big as this. And it wouldn't do any
good to punish them for not being able to do more. It would be up to us to find
ways where there could be better cooperation and where we can all be helpful to
each other.
Q.
Could I go back to the consumption side?
Mr.
Speakes. We're
just about out of time. Maybe we can get one more question. There's one of your
answers that you might want to amplify, because it could be subject to
misinterpretation. That was the one where they said, ``Do you favor jail
sentences for drug users?'' And just sort of -- --
The President. No, no.
Mr.
Speakes. -- -- an emphatic no,
but you know many States have laws that already -- --
The President. Oh, well, we can't
overrule States and their laws. But I do think that as a part of a campaign of
the kind that we're talking, where you're going to want to identify the users
in order to be of help to them, in this program now of turning them off on
drugs, why, then, I think that we're going to be -- my own view is -- far
better off if we do as the military did and offer them -- you can come in and
you can ask for help and you won't be punished if you will agree to take the
help to try and cure you.
Q.
Can I just follow up on that?
Mr.
Speakes. You know the business of the jails, too --
you know we talked about if you reduced the use of drugs, then many people who
are using drugs have resorted to crime in order to get money to pay for the
habit -- --
The President. Oh, yes.
Mr.
Speakes. -- -- and then you're
reducing the problem -- --
The President. It's such a complex
problem. Let me just, along that tack, just tell you something. One community
in
Q.
Do you like that idea?
The President. Well, let me tell you
what happened. In that period they wanted to find out something about -- this
was local law enforcement. In that period robbery and burglary was virtually
zero while they were off the streets, which was what they wanted to find out;
and that is that, yes, a lot of the crime, particularly the robbery-type crime,
is coming from the people that need it to feed the habit -- the pay for the
habit. And when they shut them up for a few days, the police didn't have any
crimes.
Q.
But what do you do about kids in schools that are found to be taking or selling
drugs?
The President. Now, here again, this
is the one above all. I think first of all we want to sit down with the
teachers, the principals, the school boards, and so forth to make sure that
they recognize that in this war it is no reflection on them. You know,
sometimes school officials can be a little reluctant to report something,
because they're afraid the school board will think, well, they're derelict in
their duty. But we want to deal with them and then, yes, we want to get at the
students. And it's just like the Just Say No thing. We're going to do
everything we can to let them know, again: Come tell us; we'll help. There
won't be punishment. Now, if you get the recalcitrant who is just -- he's going
to continue regardless, then we've got some wonderful examples where school
principals here and there in our country have taken over schools that were
really out of bounds, that were running wild, and the kind of principal that
just starts -- well, I know of one that had over 350 expulsions, just expelled
that many students, and now has a school that is a model for everyone to
follow.
Q.
Are you in favor of cutting off Federal aid to school systems that don't have
good drug programs? And if so, how do you enforce that?
The President. Well, you're talking
there about secondary education -- colleges and so forth.
Q.
Yes.
The President. My concern there is:
Wouldn't you be punishing a lot of non-users, because a lot of those Federal
funds are going to individual students in the form of grants and loans so they
can go to college. Well, you shut off the grant, and you shut off the ability
to go to college for a lot of kids who aren't users. And I don't think that's
the way to go.
Mr.
Speakes. You're pushing your schedule about 10
minutes behind.
Q.
I was going to ask another
The President. I'm tempted. Go ahead.
Go ahead.
Q.
Okay, the question is: To what extent is the problem with
The President. And that is at a level
of society, also, where we know that -- you know, they
have a dinner party and they feel they have to put the drug out on the coffee
table, like a cocktail party. And, yes, that has to be dealt with -- that
particular problem.
Q.
Did that happen when you were there? Were you ever -- --
The President. No, the drug thing
hadn't hit
Q.
No one ever tempted you?
The President. What? No, but all the
things that are going on today -- it's a different industry.
Q.
Thanks, Mr. President.
Note:
The interview began at