Interview With Hugh Sidey of Time Magazine
Q.
Number one, thanks a lot. I wanted to just talk today,
if I could, about more of your personal feelings through a very tough time in
your Presidency, and you know, this is kind of a demarcation point. How do you
feel about it? Was this an embattled time especially, or -- --
The President. Well, naturally it
wasn't the happiest of times, and sometimes I'd get annoyed at the interference
with what I thought was getting on with the things that should be done. But,
Hugh, I have to tell you, I never felt too upset, because I knew I'd told the
truth and that the truth would have to come out -- and did.
Q.
But how did you keep smiling, because a lot of people wouldn't believe you
still? A lot of people question, you know, whether the -- or at least think
that you haven't told everything, according to the polls.
The President. Yes, I did. And what
used to make me smile a little bit was the fact that I was the first one to
tell them about such things as that there was extra money and so forth. And
good Lord, I appointed the first commission, and it came in long before this
one started with a lot of the information that was new to me and that I had to
hear for the first time.
Q.
This was a pretty heavy siege, though. How did you keep your optimism? It was
pretty sustained throughout that period.
The President. Well, as I say, I just
had faith in the truth.
Q.
I see. How tough was it, though, to see those close to you affected by this --
Mrs. Reagan or children or old colleagues?
The President. Well, I think that
those that were close around me kind of took their cue from me. But I did hear
from a great many friends who expressed, again, their faith and trust, and that
was very pleasant.
Q.
Was there a low point in this 8 months or so?
The President. No.
Q.
Anything make you angry? I kept reading these stories about sometimes you got
sore, here and there, at what people said.
The President. Yes, sometimes, and
sometimes I got a little angry before all of this in finding out when I learned
of things that I had not been told.
Q.
Was there a period of discouragement at all?
The President. No.
Q.
Never got down that far?
The President. Nope.
Q.
You had every faith you were going to come out in the end?
The President. Yes.
Q.
Do you think it's over with pretty much now?
The President. I think it is as far as
the audience is concerned.
Q.
Yes. A number of people have said that the thing that bothers you -- friends
have told me that -- were these polls that said the people thought that you
were holding back. Now, can you recover that? Do you fully expect to restore
the credibility?
The President. Yes. Naturally no one's
going to be overjoyed at seeing a poll that finds that people thought you
weren't telling the truth. But then one other poll asked an added question, and
that was a question of the people who said that they thought I wasn't telling
the truth. They asked them, well, you know, what did they think about that? And
the overwhelming majority of them thought, well, of course, there are always
going to be things that a President shouldn't tell. And it threw a whole different
aspect then on that first question and the answers to it.
Q.
I see, yes. Did you end this period at all -- or how did you feel about the
group of men that were involved in this that had been on your staff? How do you
end this period now with your feelings about North and Poindexter and
McFarlane?
The President. Well, I heard them out.
I can understand why they did what they did and what their motives were, and
certainly they weren't bad motives. And I'm just sorry that it turned out that
way. The truth that I told the first time, once [Attorney General] Ed Meese came in here and said there was a piece of paper that
indicated there was more money than the purchase price of the weapons and that
somehow that money was in a Swiss bank account and so forth -- now, all I fall
back on is: I am the one who went on the air and told the people that and told
the press that in the press room, and that I had appointed a commission to find
out what there was to know about this.
Q.
What was your big mistake, or was there one in all of this? Do you pinpoint
something you shouldn't have done or should have done that you didn't do?
The President. Well, you see, in a
covert operation like that -- and the covert operation was a response by us to
an appeal from this other group of individuals who wanted to discuss better
relations with our country. And it had to be covert for their safety, because
contrary to what some of the people have said, I was not doing business with
the [Ayatollah] Khomeini. In fact, quite the contrary; these were people that
were anticipating another government to follow him. And if you'll remember, at
that particular time, almost every day there were reports of his failing health
and that his days were very numbered and so forth. And they wanted to talk
about a better relation than we have with the present government.
Q.
How'd you get through those days when the hearings started, Mr. President? Did
you read the papers as normal? Did you follow it closely in the papers?
The President. Actually, I didn't
change my pattern or my schedule much at all. Occasionally, I might have a few
minutes and step into the next room and turn on the TV just to see who was on
and so forth. And I didn't have to depend on the press. Our legal counsel kept me
informed with a summary.
Q.
So, you had internal information -- --
The President. Yes.
Q. -- -- as well. Did you give up any reading at
all? Did you try to avoid it at all, or was it just -- --
The President. No, no.
Q.
I see. But you watched a little of it. Did you talk it over with Mrs. Reagan?
Did she -- --
The President. Oh, yes. We used to -- --
Q. -- -- she kept an eye on it?
The President. Well, she probably
didn't watch any more than I did.
Q.
I see. But you felt current throughout the time? You felt you knew what was -- --
The President. Yes.
Q. -- -- what was happening? Yes. What is your
feeling in general? Is this sort of thing inevitable in this office at some
time or another in the Presidency? I've been through seven Presidents, and it
seems to me every administration, at one time or another, has -- --
The President. -- -- has an investigation by the
Congress of the President.
Q.
Well, something goes sour, you know, or something goes off. What's your broad
view of it? Is it --
--
The President. Well, Hugh, actually,
all that I remember is, you know, for a half a century now, with only an
exception of a few years, the Congress, both Houses, have been of one party.
And I think if you check back, every President of the opposite party has been
investigated for something or other. But I don't recall any investigations of
the Presidents when the Presidents and the Legislature were of the same party.
Q.
Yes, I see. Well, what you're suggesting, if I'm correct, is that there's a lot
of politics in this. The Presidential election have
much to do with it?
The President. Well, I'm not going to
comment on that.
Q.
You're not going to comment?
The President. No.
Q.
You're going to stay out of that, I see.
The President. Maybe I shouldn't have
said what I just said.
Q.
Well, now, did you keep a diary throughout this time? Do you have some private
thoughts?
The President. Well, I've kept a diary
from the first day here. And actually, Hugh, the reason for that was one thing
I learned after the 8 years as Governor -- that the schedules are such and the
succession of things and the meetings -- that getting out of that 8-year
experience as Governor, I suddenly realized that memory -- well, there were
things that I could remember, but I couldn't tell you whether they were in the
first or the second term. And then I realized there were a lot of things that I
just could not, if I had to, recall, and it was a very busy 8 years there. And
so, when faced with this job, Nancy and I both said this time -- --
Q.
You're going to keep that record, huh?
The President. -- -- let's keep a record so that that
won't happen.
Q.
Through this particular stressful period, then, you've kept pretty good notes
on -- --
The President. As a matter of fact, I
made some of those diary notes available to the investigators.
Q.
Yes, I knew that. Somebody told me you also kept your regular meetings with
Edmund Morris [President's biographer]. He's working on the book.
The President. Yes.
Q.
So that there is that. Any surprises when that comes out?
The President. I don't think so. Well,
not to me.
Q.
Oh, I see. I see, you know that. Did you expect when you became President,
having seen, of course, what happened to Lyndon Johnson and Nixon and Truman
and all of them, as you mentioned before, did you expect that anything like
this would happen, that there would be an episode in your Presidency? Were you
prepared for that possibility, I guess is what I'm saying.
The President. Well, Hugh, I think
after the 8 years as Governor, also, you know that there's always a target
painted on the Chief Executive's door. No, the big surprise, however, was
exactly what we said. First of all, my reaction when our covert operation was
exposed by that leak in Beirut and our press immediately went up with it, my
reaction there -- it was just one of -- and I voiced it to the press at every
opportunity, and then it was echoed by David Jacobsen, the hostage that came
home at about the same time -- and that was, please, you can get some people
killed by talking about this and asking about it. And I had in mind the people
we were dealing with as well as our own hostages, because when Jacobsen came
out, the word we had was that there were going to be a couple more in just a
few days. And that was all that was on my mind.
Well,
then when -- as I say, Ed Meese was the one who saw
that one paper that indicated that there was somehow more money and in a Swiss
bank account -- this was just the biggest surprise in the world, because we
hadn't set out to trade hostages for -- or arms for hostages, even though I
always feel a great responsibility to do everything possible to get back the
hostages, except ransom. And I knew that the arms we sold were priced at $12
million, and we got our $12 million. That had come back before the exposure and
all. And it was just such a surprise that first -- well, the very next morning
-- he agreed with me that we had to make this known. And we called in the joint
leadership of the Congress, both Houses and both parties, and told them. And
then I went immediately into the press room and then, as you know, a short time
later, went on the air.
Q.
One of the points in this whole thing, Mr. President, was the failure or the
fact that you didn't just summon Oliver North and say, you know, lay this all
out for me. Was there some reason or some -- --
The President. Well, whether our
thinking was right or wrong at that point -- and we were all agreed here that
with this now exposed and my not having been told that they just had to leave
the National Security Council, they could not continue. So, I thought of that
before I thought any questions or anything, and I think they both felt the same
way.
Q.
And it got swept up in all the litigation or the process there.
The President. Yes.
Q.
I see. But finally, how do you think history will deal with this, looking down
the road? Do you think it's going to fade away in the minds of people the next
few years or -- --
The President. Well, it is my hope
that, once everything is settled and known, history will deal with it as the
big investigation that finally discovered the President was telling the truth
from the very beginning.
Q.
I see. And will you still be in office when that's established, do you think?
The President. Well, I would like to
see it established very quickly.
Q.
I see. Is it getting tougher, in your judgment -- now you've been here 7 years
-- tougher to run this place in this city? You invented the term ``inside the
beltway,'' which implies a certain environment that doesn't reflect national
sentiment. Has that become increasingly difficult to work in?
The President. Well, I don't know
whether it's any different than it's been for anyone else. I do know that for
years back there has been a kind of friction between the executive branch and
the Legislature and an attempt to erode the powers of the President, and -- --
Q.
Has that gotten worse?
The President. I don't really know,
because I came here with minus some powers that previously Presidents had had.
Naturally, seeing it from the Executive Office side, I believe what's being
attempted is a mistake. I think there are some things that just can't be run by
a committee of 535 people. And when you stop to think back over history, we
have been in my lifetime -- well, in the lifetime of the nation, I should say
-- five declared wars. But history will reveal that Presidents have sent
military forces of the United States into action 125 times, and without it
being a declared war, and on the assumption of the executive branch that it was
essential for the security of the United States to do that.
Q.
Your feeling then is that in all the actions you took, to the extent you knew
anyway, was perfectly legal.
The President. Yes.
Q.
There wasn't any problem with the War Powers Act or your authority or any of
that?
The President. No.
Q.
I see. Going back to that one question, you do not see then any evil men
involved in this on our side? I'm talking about your NSC, White House -- nobody
that you would point to as a culprit or somebody -- --
The President. Well, this would get me
into trying to comment on all that took place in these hearings and all, and I
can't say that, not having seen them any more than that and getting summaries
of them of the day that -- I just don't think that I should risk making such an
assertion -- --
Q.
Yes, okay.
The President. -- -- of all of the people that have been
mentioned in the hearings.
Q.
It's getting a rather lengthy roster, I guess.
The President. Yes.
Q.
Take it from the other side then: Who was the most help throughout this period
for you in terms of morale and guidance? Because, you know, it had to be
somewhat of a burden added on to the normal job.
The President. Well, you mean outside
of my wife.
Q.
Number one -- she was, huh? Yes.
The President. Yes. But, no, from the
very beginning, not only the people here in the White House and some outside
but also friends and supporters that have gone out of their way from the very
beginning to express their confidence in me -- and it was very heartwarming.
Q.
Now, how does your wife buck you up? How did Mrs. Reagan -- --
The President. Well, because -- --
Q. -- -- get you through those days?
The President. -- -- she knew I'd told the truth, too.
The
President's Health
Q.
I see, I see. Well, you answered that. A lot of comment, Mr. President, that
you seem older and look older -- how do you feel? I read the Wall Street
Journal this morning. I suppose you did, too -- a long piece about it.
The President. No, I haven't read the
Journal this morning.
Q.
Whoops -- a summary.
The President. Which -- --
Mr.
Fitzwater. We'll have to get a copy of that. I didn't read it all.
The President. Is there something in
there about that?
Q.
Well, it had that piece in column eight saying, you know, the President seemed
to be losing steam and this, you know. It was one of those ambiguous pieces, to
be true. But anyway, a lot of comment on the feeling that you are slowing down
in these last months, not only because of the burden, but just because you're
just older.
The President. I don't know about any
slowing down. I do know that the -- other than my nose -- the last operation
that I had I did without anesthetic, and got up off the table and went upstairs
and put on my ranch clothes and went to Camp David -- it was a Friday -- --
Q.
Oh, yes.
The President. -- -- and finished the day with a swim
there and the next day with a horseback ride. And some doctors seem to be a
little surprised that I could have done that. They didn't think it was
ordinary. But, no, I feel just fine. And I haven't slowed down any; the pace is
the same. And every night the schedule for the next day and the homework for
the next day arrives, and that's my bedtime reading and so forth and -- --
Administration
Goals
Q.
Well, the other part of that theory is that your friends said that you were
going to be more combative than normal in these last 18 months.
The President. Well, that would have
been true even without this other thing. And that has to be, because I think
we've accomplished a great many things in these 6\1/2\ years. I think the fact
that we're within 2 months of having the longest expansion period in the
Nation's history -- economic expansion and all -- but I think there are things
that I will regret all my life if we don't get them pinned down. Well, for one
thing, the great problem that from the very beginning that has faced us -- the
deficit -- that I had thought at one time we could get balanced. But that was
during the campaign, and I had had a group of economists who were working on
the plan that we followed. But no one's ever asked me, so I'll tell you. Before
the election, those economists came to me and told me that the deterioration
had now been so much greater than when they made their study that, no, there
was no way that we were going to, in a few years, be able to balance the
budget. But we put the plan into effect anyway, aimed at whenever it can
happen.
But
now with this deficit spending and our Economic Bill of Rights, as we call it
-- that is based on some things that are just essential, and that is a balanced
budget amendment. And it's a strange thing. When I heard some of the
Congressmen talking about their obligation to the people and to do what the
people want -- the polls show that 80 percent of the people want a balanced
budget amendment to the Constitution.
Q.
I see that. The new figures have come out on that, yes.
The President. And also what 43
Governors have and what I had as Governor -- and that is the right of line-item
veto. I think those are essential tools. I would like to see those in place and
a program in place. Well, the Gramm-Rudman-Hollings program is dedicated to
this also -- that is aiming at a point down here where the budget will be
balanced and from then on have to stay balanced. Having had that in our
Constitution -- I think about 44 States have that in
their State constitutions; we had it in
And
of course, the answer to those people who think that, well, then let's just
raise the revenues -- well, we've done that a few times, and if you want to
look back in history, virtually every tax increase has led to lower revenues
when the rates were higher because of the lack of incentive and the search by
people to find tax shelters and so forth. And since our tax cuts have gone into
effect, the revenues now are bigger.
And
to those liberal-minded individuals who always want to aim at the top earners
and say, ``Make them pay the heaviest load'' -- they do pay the heaviest load.
And the truth of the matter is, the top earners today
are paying a higher percentage of the total tax than they were before, even
though their rates have been reduced. Now, that means that there is the proof
that those people who are in brackets where they look for tax shelters and so
forth, or didn't earn extra money because it wasn't worth it, now with a lower
tax rate, the incentive is there for them to produce more, and as a result,
they do pay a higher tax even though it's at a lower rate.
Q.
One more -- --
Mr.
Kuhn. Mr. President, you're three minutes late for your final appointment over
in the Residence.
The President. Oh.
The
President's Careers
Q.
One more question here. You've had five careers: as a kid, as a sportscaster,
as a movie actor, as a Governor and a President. Which has been the most fun?
The President. Well, I have to tell
you something, I have been blessed; I've enjoyed every one of them. I am still
very proud of seven summers as a lifeguard.
Q.
I see, that ranks right up there.
The President. Yes, I had a log with
77 notches in it for the -- pulled out.
Q.
I see.
The President. But then, sports
announcing -- I thought that was my career. And yet I had always -- going
through school, high school and college -- I'd always, in addition to
athletics, I'd always been involved in the dramatic clubs and that sort of
thing and the class plays. And when, out of the blue, literally, came an
opportunity to switch from sports announcing to acting -- and I loved that.
And
all I can tell you is I fought like a tiger against
ever running for office. I thought that was for someone else, that I would do
what I had done for other candidates, like my speeches for Barry Goldwater, that I would campaign for others. And when I was
beset in 1965 by this group that insisted that I had to seek the governorship
against the incumbent Governor then because the party was divided and all, I
fought like a tiger not to. And finally, I couldn't sleep nights, and Nancy and
I said yes. But then, I have to tell you, we'd only been there a few months and
one night we looked at each other, sitting in the living room in
Q.
So, you went the distance?
The President. Yes.
The
President's Future Plans
Q.
Now, what are you going to do when you get out?
The President. Well, a lot more
ranching than I get to do now. And I anticipate that; I look forward to that.
But I have a hunch I will be back in the mashed-potato circuit, campaigning for
things I believe in and people I believe in.
Q.
What are you going to do on this vacation, Mr. President? You going to do some
fence -- paper cutting and --
--
The President. Well, there will be
some more pruning. And the pruning is also accompanied by -- out of it getting
firewood, because there are two fireplaces, which is our only heat. And you'd
be surprised at the extent of the woodpiles that we have there and yet how fast
they go when you're there for several days in the cooler season and you have
fires going in both fireplaces all day long. We'll be doing that, but every morning,
we'll be riding.
Q.
I see. I was up at Ralph Regula's office the other
day, and he has pictures of you you sent to him
making a fence out of telephone poles. Do you still do that?
The President. Well, did he explain to
you why he's got the pictures?
Q.
Yes.
The President. Because
he's got some property and wanted a fence. And I tried to give him all
the directions and write the directions that I could, and then I did -- or sent
him pictures to show him.
Q.
That's pretty good. Yes, you're running behind, I guess.
The President. Okay.
Q.
Thank you. Well, you're on tonight. Have you got any butterflies? Are you up to
this one?
The President. Well, I'll be sitting
at the same desk so I can always duck.
Q.
You've done that before?
The President. Yes.
Q.
That's great.
The President. And I'm glad you got
around to some of the future here, because that's what I'd expected to talk
about, was what we are going to do for the next 17 months.
Note: The interview
began at